The Gaming Den

We all know that no RPG system is perfect, and that in each game system, there is a way to break the fundamental tenets of the game structure. I was thinking of branching out to non-d20 RPGs. Before I do so, I was wondering what things in said RPGs to look out for.
P.S.: I already know enough about D&D's breakable aspects.
I wanted to know of any in these particularly:

Shadowrun 4th Edition: I know that it is a Cyberpunk game, but does it capture the feel well? How about combat and game mechanics? Anything out there that looks breakable?

d6 Fantasy: A non-D&D Fantasy game that is setting-generic. I am hooked just hearing about it, but what of mechanics?

World of Darkness: I heard a lot about this RPG in threads. But overall, how is it?

GURPS: Generic Universal Role-Playing. There are many of those out there, but how does it stand?

BESM 3rd Edition: Over-the-top Anime Role-playing. What more do I need to say?

Rifts: Don't know much about it other than it looks like post-apocalyptic horror.

And just for fun: FATAL. Is there anybody out there who has actually tried to play this and analyze the rules in every detail?

I've been into oWoD for a very long time, and I've run some successful campaigns in the setting. I've never actually player nWoD, but I feel confident that my observations are as true there as in it's previous incarnation.

*Ahem* Noone has ever, in the history of the game, played WoD for the mechanics. Storyteller was specifically and intentionally written to discourage it's own use. The people who Founded White Wolf believed and continue to believe that setting flavor and design is king, that pure RP is the best way to conduct a game, and that mechanics discourage RP. Therefore, White Wolf writes there games with intentionally clunky mechanics in the hope that you will eschew them in favor of talking your problems out with your enemies. This philosophy, while not good, make a certain amount of sense in a highly political game like Vampire, but the second game that they came out with was Werewolf, a game about turning into a monster so you can hunt down and kill worse monsters. Werewolf suffers for this philosophy.

And there was Mage, which was designed explicitly to be a Magical Tea-Party, almost specifically.

The draw for WoD is the setting. There is alot of cool shit* in WoD, but you have to put up with Storyteller to play it.

-Desdan

(*And alot of retarded shit, to be sure, but c'est la vie.)

Bwahahahaa.

Oh, man. Oh, shit. Thats great. Thanks for the laugh.

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1190511388[/unixtime]]Bwahahahaa.

Oh, man. Oh, shit. Thats great. Thanks for the laugh.

Are you referring to me or Desdan?

Relevant to GURPS:

GURPS is difficult to place. The combat mechanics of GURPS tend to make combat quick and deadly... unless you're playing some variety of immortal, in which case, you're fine. The optimal way to fight in GURPS seems to be sneak around with a sniper rifle and make called/aimed shots, but this of course depends on the tech level; that being said, you can achieve similar results with a crossbow; successful called shots to certain vulnerable points do more then enough damage to kill in one hit. Given that there are no levels, people tend to not have piles of hit points; as such, direct damage is (nine times out of ten) better then save-or-die in GURPS. Given that most people will drop from 20 points of damage, which is easily accessible to anyone at a modern tech level, if you're in a combat-intensive game, you'll either have to fight carefully (use cover and dodge and stuff to stay out of harms way)... or have a pile of character sheets ready... or play an immortal and laugh at everyone else. Yes, this is possible, and it's actually quite feasible, even at the lower point costs; if you're at all considering playing GURPS like you'd play D&D, I highly recommend it.

Relevant to Rifts: I actually quite like Rifts, but in all honesty, it follows the WoD paradigm, except that it's focused on combat. 'Nuff said.

Probably Desdan. Parts were funny IMO. Tea party... hawhaw..

GURPS is generally my first system of choice, and I've been quite impressed with the recent 4th edition so far (aside from the incredibly anal-retentive bullet damage rules). Generally GURPS works best when it's closer to human than superhuman. Human characters as the default have always been central to the system, and if you get really far away from mere mortals, you start to stretch the limits of the system. Not surprisingly there's also an issue of diminishing returns: when you get into really high point totals for characters (generally above 300 or 400 at most), points totals start to seem irrelevant, which makes the rest of the system start to seem irrelevant. I should also mention that fantasy characters in GURPS can either be created using the default skill-based magic system, or by using open-ended advantages and powers similar to the Hero System.

The Hero System, AKA Champions, is another favourite of mine, especially for over-the-top and combat-heavy games. The main problem is that Hero really isn't designed for players to pick up the main book and create characters. The referee is expected to act as a kind of middle-man between players and the character generation rules, carefully considering what options are and are not suited for the game he has prepared (much more so than in GURPS). This also tends to be a hard-sell for Hero players: tell them there's some aspect of character creation they can't use, and they'll immediately decide they'll be satisfied with nothing else other than the character options you've ruled out. Too often it seems like an awful lot of prep-work for stuff many Hero players will resent anyway.

BESM 3rd Edition is almost literally as slightly simpler version of GURPS 4e, probably because David Pulver worked on both. If you really want a nice, rules-light system, go for BESM 2e instead. BESM Dungeon, Fantasy Bestiary, and Uresia (setting) are also nice supplements, but don't mistake the d20 versions for the BESM versions. I'd also say that given it's rules-light and mecha-friendly nature, BESM 2e is the system I'd be most inclined to use for a Rifts game:uptosomething:

d6 seems to be a workable system, but it's also a system written 20 years ago (West End Games Star Wars), and it shows. I'd really doubt players nowadays would have patience with it in a long-term game.

Not seen the new gurps but I found 3rd-ed worked well for fantasy but was a bit too brutal in modern and crazy in Future. Gurps fantasy setting was kind of fun.

d6 was great for star wars but, as Rob pointed out, without feats and other swag for anyone but jedis to get some characters might get a bit dissappointed with development. Not sure how the generic d6 is different though. Mechanics wise it is dirt simple. roll a pile of d6s and add then compare to DC.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190515369[/unixtime]]

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1190511388[/unixtime]]Bwahahahaa.

Oh, man. Oh, shit. Thats great. Thanks for the laugh.

Are you referring to me or Desdan?

Oh, both. Partly you for bringing this up yet again, and mostly him for that amusing summary of WoD games. At some point, you're going to have to suck it up and just play something, because you just aren't going to find a Platonic Ideal in the realm of role playing games.

As for your question, lets see.
WoD, Rifts, GURPS, BESM.
All these fall under the lovely roof of Prak-isms. Horribly broken, badly written and liable to fall apart unless you pretend they won't. And even then, they'll kick you in the teeth when you aren't expecting it with something truly stupid. Interestingly, though, they're bad for entirely different reasons.

d6. I vaguely remember the only WEG Star Wars, which used part of this. It was not horrible. but wasn't stellar, either. No where near as bad as the other d6 game that comes to mind- Star Trek. That was fvcking horrible mechanically, just because of the randomness inherent in a reroll 6s system when target numbers routinely wander into the teens and twenties.

Shadowrun. 4th hasn't exactly caught my interest, but the basic impression I've gotten is that if you screw up your character build, you might as well have the character commit suicide by the end of the first session. You aren't going to recover from that, ever.


Though if you want a really fun system, dig Rolemaster out of whatever hole its in

ckafrica at [unixtime wrote:1190520234[/unixtime]]Not sure how the generic d6 is different though. Mechanics wise it is dirt simple. roll a pile of d6s and add then compare to DC.

I don't know where my copy of d6 Fantasy is right now, but IIRC it incorporates new spell/effect creation rules originally from Torg/Masterbook:ugone2far:. To be fair, that's one of the few Masterbook mechanics I can still appreciate in hindsight.

The 6 hero classes in d20 Modern and Future are cool but implementation of their traits could be better.
E6 is easy to do with those two systems, which is a perk if you like that kind of gaming. It works well since there are weapons that obliterate normal humans in a single blow anyway, so it's sort of stupid that anyone could survive, say, a grenade to the face as a L20 character.

One could rationalize that the modern age has made us weak. heh

GURPS was the only system I saw that worked with crunchy sci-fi.

Generic d6 is exactly like Star Wars d6.

-Crissa

From what I recall, Rifts (well, the Palladium system in general, I guess) suffered from a couple pretty huge problems. First, your character class determined your power level, and the various character classes weren't even close in many cases. In DnD terms of vulnerability and offensive power levels, you could have a starting party of a 20th level Druid and a 1st level commoner, and that wouldn't even be uncommon. Second, if you manage to resolve the first problem, by banning everything with MDC, you still have weird character creation issues. Like the fact you can, given enough work, run faster than a car as a normal human. Seriously, they had skills raising your physical stats significantly, which wasn't so much a problem in Rifts, where being an ordinary human meant you were pathetic cannon fodder. In Palladium's other games it sometimes caused problems though.

Of course, I've not looked at one of their books in about a decade and a half, so I could be wrong.

I decided to try d20 Modern. Versatile enough to branch out into multiple genres, yet possesses a fine line between grim-n-gritty and high-powered action. So far, one of my favorites.

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1190516342[/unixtime]]Probably Desdan. Parts were funny IMO. Tea party... hawhaw..

I'm not even joking either. Ability to use magic was split arbitrarily into nine "Spheres" to encompass such concepts as "Life", "Decay", and "Time". Your control over those spheres was measured from 0-5, and when you want to use magic you tell your ST what you want to do, he looks at your character sheet to see if you're awesome enough, and then decides to either let you do it, punch you in the nuts, or (Perennial favorite of Mage STs everywhere) give you what you want while punching you in the nuts.

-Desdan

Desdan_Mervolam at [unixtime wrote:1190530640[/unixtime]]

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1190516342[/unixtime]]Probably Desdan. Parts were funny IMO. Tea party... hawhaw..

I'm not even joking either. Ability to use magic was split arbitrarily into nine "Spheres" to encompass such concepts as "Life", "Decay", and "Time". Your control over those spheres was measured from 0-5, and when you want to use magic you tell your ST what you want to do, he looks at your character sheet to see if you're awesome enough, and then decides to either let you do it, punch you in the nuts, or (Perennial favorite of Mage STs everywhere) give you what you want while punching you in the nuts.

-Desdan

hehe... glad I never played Mage then!

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190509513[/unixtime]]We all know that no RPG system is perfect, and that in each game system, there is a way to break the fundamental tenets of the game structure.

I double dog dare you to break Wushu.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190509513[/unixtime]]Shadowrun 4th Edition: I know that it is a Cyberpunk game, but does it capture the feel well? How about combat and game mechanics? Anything out there that looks breakable?

d6 Fantasy: A non-D&D Fantasy game that is setting-generic. I am hooked just hearing about it, but what of mechanics?

Rifts: Don't know much about it other than it looks like post-apocalyptic horror.

Haven't played these but there are threads around for Rifts and Shadowrun.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190509513[/unixtime]]World of Darkness: I heard a lot about this RPG in threads. But overall, how is it?

The mechanics suck, the flavor partially suck and, most often then not, the players suck the most. WoD is the last refuge of all those people you wouldn't admit in your own campaign. I cannot even count count the number of weirdoes who approached me after the mistake of uttering "I'll run Mage" in the local con.

As for breaking it, play people with mind control. People like Tremere Vampires and Mind Mages basically laugh at others.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190509513[/unixtime]]GURPS: Generic Universal Role-Playing. There are many of those out there, but how does it stand?

The main problem with GURPS is that the game isn't even on the same page as itself. You can seriously have a party of a perfectly normal fighter and a mage with every SoD in the book and GURPS tells you that these two are equal. There is a lot of power creep too. Not a game I like despite having made several people into its fanatics when I was MiB.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190509513[/unixtime]]BESM 3rd Edition: Over-the-top Anime Role-playing. What more do I need to say?

I like BESM. Stay away from the Mecha and you'll do fine. I don't know what to suggest because I haven't analyzed it yet.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190509513[/unixtime]]And just for fun: FATAL. Is there anybody out there who has actually tried to play this and analyze the rules in every detail?

FATAL is very easy to break. Just change your career (or whatever FATAL calls classes) every time you hit double digit levels and you'll win the game.

Or, alternatively, miscast anything 10000 times and you'll statistically obliterate all life on the planet. How cool is that?

You don't 'break' Shadowrun 4th Edition.

It's possible to accumulate power beyond the means and to kill anyone you feel like in the game. You can even conceivably overthrow the totalitarian society Shadowrun is based off of.

But actually causing the game to stop working is impossible. It's not like D&D where the Wish and the Word push an 'I Win' button. If you killed every CEO in the game, so what? It's a modern society and replacements will come back faster than you can kill them. They'll probably also be able to assemble teams that can kill you. If nothing else, they can use the same tricks you did.

The best you can do to 'break' Shadowrun 4th Edition is to cause nuclear winter, but doing this is in no way related to how you build your character.

Savage World has an easy to use and not so dumb system. I'm gonna give it a try later this year in an Indiana Jones style pulpy adventure.

I have to say I don't agree with you about the savage worlds system.

IF you have a d6 for shooting, and I have a d4 for shooting, and we decided to have a pistol duel, you are more likely to hit than me at 10 meters, but I am more likely to hit than you at 14 meters. (Well, range units)

Edit: Probability aside it's not that bad, and the effects of TNs and exploding dice are rarely more than 5% either way, but it can be rather weird.

I don't like the gross disparity between the various caster classes, a fact that is especially noticeable in deadlands. Blessed are so much better than chi powered characters it is quite absurd.

Okay, that's true. Exploding dice screw arround with any system.
In SW, the dice grow as your skill grows. So someone with a skill of d6 is more likely to ace(dice explodes) than someone with a skill of d8. On the other hand, the guy with a skill of d8 is consistently better.

About Deadlands(i'm guessing you mean SW Deadlands), i have no clue. Haven't read it, except the old Deadlands.
As far as casters are concerned, so far, i haven't seen a gaming system that incorporates magic in which casters don't rule.

josephbt at [unixtime wrote:1190556221[/unixtime]]Okay, that's true. Exploding dice screw arround with any system.
In SW, the dice grow as your skill grows. So someone with a skill of d6 is more likely to ace(dice explodes) than someone with a skill of d8. On the other hand, the guy with a skill of d8 is consistently better.

The problem is that as a TN system, the average result is basically meaningless, only the chance of getting a specific result or better. So an exploding d4 averages 3.35, while an exploding d6 averages 4.2 or something. But that all means jack shit the instant you get a TN of 6. Because the exploding d4 gets that 3/16 times and the exploding d6 gets that 3/18 times.

Similarly, a d6 comes up with an 8 13.9% of the time instead of 12.5% for a d8. A d8 comes up with a 10 over 9% more than a d10 does.

And so on and so on. Of course a d6 gets a five 33% more than a d4 does. But the fact remains that being better does frequently make you slightly worse. The jumps in probability are really quite surprising and more importantly they are stupid.

-Username17

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1190520493[/unixtime]]WoD, Rifts, GURPS, BESM.
All these fall under the lovely roof of Prak-isms. Horribly broken, badly written and liable to fall apart unless you pretend they won't. And even then, they'll kick you in the teeth when you aren't expecting it with something truly stupid. Interestingly, though, they're bad for entirely different reasons.

this is not a term I particularly approve of... leave anything I said in my thread out of other threads, especially since I realized I was saying something stupid. What's in my sig now is true, and doesn't speak of ignoring flaws.

anyway, my experience with WOD, Rifts, and BESM:
Wod is a hell of a lot of fun, but combat can take a while, and if you don't have someone with that one/supernatural healing power, if you get dropped, kick back with a book or grab some food, because you ain't doing anything for a while. Now maybe my ST simplified things, but it's still a fucking fun system.
Rifts, is probably a bit of an acid trip you kinda just have to go with... but it's also fun, though I suppose it has it's flaws like every other system... if you want to analyze a game to pieces till it's not fun anymore, go for it, but I functione under the understanding that we play these games to have fun, not to give ourselves ulcers over how many attacks dragons have...
BESM, it's fun, but then again I liked Rifts and WoD... according to some of the people on these boards I should be committed for being able to overlook flaws in favour of having fun... BESM can be very broken, because you can seriously turn about 10 points into a couple hundred with the right powers... but that's not something you have to do or even allow... in D&D, some of the most broken stuff are the classes, and ya kinda need those to play... in BESM, you can tell your players to not filter ten points through three powers and come out with 200, on penalty of being thrown from the game, by way of a window...

If decide not to be a Wyland/Yutani jackass that drags the monster out of the dark to do your bidding, you don't break the fucking game

Actually, what is in your sig now isn't even a grammatically correct statement, so it can't be true. It also leaves out the 50,000 other ways you can break the game, so... so what?

FrankT wrote:But the fact remains that being better does frequently make you slightly worse.

Slightly worse, yes. Frequently, no.
The odds go wrong only when the TN is the maximum of next skill level. So, if a Wild Card has a d4 skill(and a d6 joker), the odds of getting a 6 are 32.29% versus a 30.56% for a d6/d6 guy. For a d6/d6 guy its 25.85% chance to get an 8, it's 24.65% for a d8/d6 guy. Its 18.36% versus 17.50% for d8/d6 against d10/d6.

I don't see this as a big problem.